playing / improvisiation using scales ?!

[CivilWar]

k... never cared too much about that, but how does using scales actually work?

is it when a ryhtm guitarist play like G... D... A... or something the soloist improvises using the G scale then the D scale and so on? i mean depending which chord the rythm guitarist plays the lead guitarist changes the scale he uses? it works that way, doesnt it?

could anyone tell me a site or tab where i could find all the scales i could possibly need for jamming around ?

[Kilamite]

Scales are notes which in sequence match a chord under the scale name.

Pick the scale of E for example. The E chord fits with every note in that scale, but since you are playing chord E (chord I) you can play chord (IV) which is A and then chord (V) which is B - if I'm wrong someone tell me!

Improvisation usually is set - either the lead guitarist or rhythm will say "ok, lets jam around the chords C,F,G" and the soloist will improvise around a scale that fits all 3 chords (fuck am I talking ballocks here?).

I mean, in the Em penatonic scale, you could just play an Em chord all the way thru the solo if the lead guitarist sticks to that pattern, but that isn't very interesting for you - and chord changes make the music more interesting and move it about more.


Search on Google for info..

[CivilWar]

Pick the scale of E for example. The E chord fits with every note in that scale, but since you are playing chord E (chord I) you can play chord (IV) which is A and then chord (V) which is B - if I'm wrong someone tell me!

I, IV, V ? :wtf:

Improvisation usually is set - either the lead guitarist or rhythm will say "ok, lets jam around the chords C,F,G" and the soloist will improvise around a scale that fits all 3 chords (fuck am I talking ballocks here?).

all 3 chords?! i thought the soloist just changes the scale too !?

[Kilamite]

Fuck I don't know!


Go search on google!

The soloist does change scale, but he needs to let the rhythm guitarist know otherwise there will be a clash between scale and chord and it will sound shite!

[CivilWar]

i thought the soloist plays from the C scale when rythm guitarist is playing a C chord, and if the rythm guitarist changes to a D or wathever the solist changes too?!

got no idea either...

[Kilamite]

Yeh something like that!

But the solo-ist doesn't know that the rhythm guitarist is gonna change unless he tells him! That's what i'm tryin to say!

[guitarpatch]

Here's a site that might help

www.musictheory.net

pull down the option that says Lessons, and you should find something in there that might be some help.

[CivilWar]

yeah, sure...

[bolt]

If you want to improvise/ write a song, what you in theory should do (although this is very often NOT the way it goes) is choose a scale - e.g. C major:

c, d, e, f, g, a, b


----c----d---e--f---g-----a--b---c----d---e---f-----g----a-----7---8-
-----------------------------------------------------8---10-----b---c
----------------------------------------7--9--10------------------
---------------------------7--9--10-------------------------------
--------------7--8--10--------------------------------------------
-----8--10---------------------------------------------------------


Chords can be made by taking specific notes from this scale and putting them together. You can then improvise over these chords using the scale.

The most common way to build chords from the scale is by taking a "root" note, then a "third", then a "fifth" - don't worry this is actually easier than it sounds.



ROOT
The "root" note is the main note/bass note, and is what the chord's name comes from. e.g. C major has a root note of C, D major has a root note of D, E minor has a root note of E, F deminished 19th-type crazy chord has a root note of F - it's as easy as that.



THIRDS and FIFTHS
The other notes that contribute to a chord are taken from the scale at specific intervals above the "root" . The most common intervals to add to the root are "thirds" and "fifths".

Keeping with the scale of C, you can choose either a,b,c,d,e,f, or g to be the root, as these are the notes in the scale. For example, lets choose C as the "root":


-----------------------------------------------------------------7--8-
-------------------------------------------------------8---10--------
-----------------------------------------c---7--9--10------------------
----------------e--------g-------7--9--10-------------------------------
------c--------(7)--8--(10)--------------------------------------------
-----(8)--10---------------------------------------------------------

c is the "root", e is the "third" (i.e. the third note up in the scale when starting from the root note), g is the "fifth" (i.e. fifth note in the scale when starting from the root).

You can put these notes together to form a chord:


-----------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------
---5--g (repositioned from 10 on the fret below)--------
---7--e----------------------------------------
---8--c----------------------------------------

To "reinforce" the "root" note, another c can be added:


--------------------------
--------------------------
----5----c------------------
----5----g------------------
----7----e------------------
----8----c------------------
This is C major

You can get other chords by taking other notes from the scale as a root note, and then adding a third and fifth to it in the same way as above - e.g.

---------------------------------------------------------------------7--8-
-------------------------------------------------e----------8---10--------
-------------------------------------b-------7--(9)--10------------------
----------------e--------g-------7--(9)--10-------------------------------
--------------(7)--8--(10)--------------------------------------------
-----8--10---------------------------------------------------------

e is the root, g is the third, b is the fifth

--------------
--5--e----------
--4--b----------
--5--g----------
--7--e----------
--------------

this is E minor, just in a funny position - it is more often played like this:

----------------
----------------
-0---g---------
-2---e---------
-2---b---------
-0---e---------
.
You can also get D major in the same way, using D as the root.

E minor, D major and C major can be used to form a chord progression - e.g.


--------------------------
--------------------------
--12--------13-----9-----------
--14--------12-----10-----------
--14--------12-----10-----------
--12--------10-----8-----------
e minor, d major, c major

You can then use notes from the C major scale to solo over this chord progression (which incidentally is part of the madagascar chord progression.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------


You may see progressions quoted as something like "I, III, V" - this is just referring to the stage in the scale from which the root note was taken:



-----I---II--III-IV--V---VI--VII------
----------------------------------------
--------------------------a---b--------
-------------e---f---g----7--9--------
-----c---d---7--8--10----------------
-----8--10----------------------------


so, the chord which has C as the root note will be the "I" chord, and the chord with E as the root will be the "III" chord, and the chord with G as the root will be the "V" chord.

[CivilWar]

thanks alot dude, i'll try that...

[zepsun]

also keep in mind that when a song is in Cmajor(also called Am) for example, u can use all the notes in the scale over any chord progression that is derived from the scale...
So if the chords were C, Am, and G....u could use any combination of notes from the scale...or if the chords were F, G, Dm, Am, same thing..use the notes from the C major scale...
Look at each chord in the song and look at its notes..
for example...don't cry:

Am, Dm, G, C
F, G, Am
Em sometimes...

Am=A, C, E
Dm=D, F, A
G=G, B, D
C=C, E, G,

F=F, A, C
G=G, B, D
Am=A, C, E
Em=E, G, B

write out all these notes starting with the first chord letter of the song:
First chord in Don't cry is Am:
A B C D E F G A
no flats and no sharps...Its the Cmajor scale...
 
Just a side note:
You know that chord you hit, that makes it sound like you've hit home, like at the end of a song?...It's called the Tonic.
That TONIC chord usually indicates the scale...

Don't cry ends on Cmajor...Which is Am (relative) both scales use the same notes.

Knockin on Heavens door..ends in G (E minor)

Civil War starts in Em and ends in Em.

November Rain has two scales...Part one is in Am even though the first chord is F...u can hear that the song "hits home" when it plays a C chord at the end of each phrase. But Part 1 does end in Cmajor(Am)
Part2 sounds a little darker (notice that??)
It's in Cm(Eb major)...Starts in Cm and ends in Cm.

anyway...get that down...then worry about what scales coma and estranged are in..lol...both are mulitple scale songs...

Don't try to know this all at once...it comes naturally over time...

[CivilWar]

thanks zep... i'll try that...

[gan7676]

good luck cw, you'll need it.  I suck at improvising, I can't think that fast yet.

[bucketsixx]

Improvising is something im good at but i have no idea about any theory behind it...that stuff is HARD!! :o

[zepsun]

improv is not hard to do, if you're audience is non-guitar players...
but u need something special to be able to sound good, familiar, and unique at the same time...
i think that's why slash is so good..he can do all those..
it has been said that most of his solos never changed from the first time he played them.
If I could make up a Nov. rain solo on the spot..i would have such an ego.

I don't know if it was really clarified, but:
u can choose any notes from the scale that you're in...no matter what chords are being played (as long as they are scale based chords)..
For instance:
Knockin on Heaven's door:
for the verse...the chords are(notes of chords are in brackets:
G(G-B-D)
D(D-F#-A)
Am (A-C-E)
C(C-E-G)

It would be pretty boring if u only used the notes from each chord to solo over that specific chord (i remember thinking this early on too)
but u can use any scale notes at anytime..and it sounds right(for the msot part).
So keep playing along..to CD's, make your own 3 chord rhytm track..then try 5 and 6 chord phrases and solo over that...
u'll get it..

[Kilamite]

I'm kinda lost in this too.

I recorded me doing improvising around the 12th fret (Em scale + Dorian?!) and multi-tracked it with me playing chords on my acoustic in the background (chord progression; A,E,D with the occasional G).

Kilamite Improvising 1.26MB's

I dunno if those chords are meant to fit (I was seeing what fitted by ear).

A solo is totally based around chords (well scales that have matching chords) - you can't do "accidentals" and go off track?

[zepsun]

A solo is totally based around chords (well scales that have matching chords) - you can't do "accidentals" and go off track?

The group of chords in a song is what makes the scale.
You have the right idea Kilamite...but you're not in scale...
U played in E D and A???....then u shold have been soloing in A major(relative minor is F#minor)

When I was beginning lead I remember I wanted to know where I could solo in regards to the minor scale..not the major scale...
Every scale has a relative major or minor.

If a song is written around the major scale(like KOHD..Gmajor)..notice slash does not solo in G(on the album).  He solos around the 12th fret..which is the Eminor scale area.

most ppl like to think in terms of the top string and the minor scale...

That said...u should use the scales below for your track...so u should use that track again...

try using notes from this pattern..and use it at the 14th fret as well(use both in the same solo):

--2-----4--5--|
-2--3---5-----|
-1--2---4-----|
----2----4----|
----2----4----|
----2----4-5--|


14th fret area:

-----14------16--17
-----14-15--16----
13--14------16----
-----14------16----
-----14------16---
-----14------16--17

Notice the first note in the scale?? F#..and you are soloing in F#minor.
if u moved that whole pattern up one fret...u're in Gminor...
move it up one fret again, you're in G#minor...then A Minor..etc..

Try starting off with the first one..and work your way up to the second one in the same solo...
its  kinda hard to explain it over the net...
i remember reading about Steve Vai..and how one day it just clicked for him...and i was pissed....cause "how come it was clicking for me?"...
but it actually did click, not long after that...
just keep playing along with CD's...wonder why the gtr player in the song is choosing those solo notes over those chords...analyze while u play...u'll get it.

[Kilamite]

Thanks Zepsun - when I did music at school, we learnt about relative minors and shit - I wish I had payed attention now :cry2:

So essentially, I should keep on the scale and not go off it?

Take Ozzy Osbourne - Crazy Train, the tapping intro...how do chords fit with that? Then 'Rhoads slides up on the E string a bit further into the solo, how does that fit with chords?

[zepsun]

Thanks Zepsun - when I did music at school, we learnt about relative minors and shit - I wish I had payed attention now :cry2:

So essentially, I should keep on the scale and not go off it?

Take Ozzy Osbourne - Crazy Train, the tapping intro...how do chords fit with that? Then 'Rhoads slides up on the E string a bit further into the solo, how does that fit with chords?

i've moved away for four months (I'm in TV) and I don't have my gtr with me (only one month to go)..but lets see if i can work it out from memory:

The song is in A Major (F#minor)...

I'm not sure of the exact order of chords or anything..but I know the solo progrssion is based in Amajor (F#minor)...

the tapping part of the solo uses:
1. pull offs and hammer-ons: LH=>F# and  A, RH=>C# and D
2. then the bend at the 9th fret(E) while tapping in the 14th fret(same string gives you, F# and B,
3. gradual release of bend (unconventional note use-doesn't really count)
4. typical box pattern E=>F# bend (9th fret) and 10th fret A note...

so far we have used: F#, A, C#, D, E, B

I forget the rest without a guitar here...
but aside from the wrong notes (mistakes...C natural i believe) hit during the high part in this solo, its all derived from the F#minor scale...
he also uses the G# somewhere...therefore using all notes in the scale.

Even tho the tapping intro starts with a F#, E,  D progression, the lead played over it involves F#, A, and C#, and D#...


Is that what u were looking for?

[Kilamite]

Ah..yeh.

It's all getting complicated!

I'll invest in a big poster of scales I think

[CivilWar]

yo, tell me where to get a scale talbe or something to look them up

[Kilamite]

yo, tell me where to get a scale talbe or something to look them up

My guitar teacher (well...he's more of a mate that I rarely see, just happens to have done a degree in Music at uni :P) gave me a scale sheet - I'll scan it up for you if you want

Remember that from 0 fret to 12 fret is one octave. So a scale that is on the third fret (by that I mean starts on third fret) will also be exactly in tune on 15 fret since that is a whole octave above.

[CivilWar]

you'd be my personal king if you scan that shit and send it to me...

[Kilamite]

I won't have my scanner working till tomorrow - but I found this site to keep you going

http://www.chordbook.com/cb100/vguitar/guitar_scales.htm

[CivilWar]

thanks!

[Landon Lucas]

Improvising is something im good at but i have no idea about any theory behind it...that stuff is HARD!! :o

Its really not that hard at all, its the way of explaining it thats hard

[Kilamite]

That's exactly what he said you idiot.