Climate-Gate

[2NaFish]

Apparently one of the world's leading authorities on climate change have been caught out admitting to tampering with and selectively publishing info. Cant say i'm surprised.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/8370282.stm

The e-mail system of one of the world's leading climate research units has been breached by hackers.

E-mails reportedly from the University of East Anglia's Climatic Research Unit (CRU), including personal exchanges, appeared on the internet on Thursday.

A university spokesman confirmed the email system had been hacked and that information was taken and published without permission.

An investigation was underway and the police had been informed, he added.

"We are aware that information from a server used for research information in one area of the university has been made available on public websites," the spokesman stated.

"Because of the volume of this information we cannot currently confirm that all of this material is genuine.

"This information has been obtained and published without our permission and we took immediate action to remove the server in question from operation.

"We are undertaking a thorough internal investigation and we have involved the police in this enquiry."

Researchers at CRU, one of the world's leading research bodies on natural and human-induced climate change, played a key role in the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change's (IPCC) Fourth Assessment Report, which is considered to be the most authoritative report of its kind.

http://www.examiner.com/x-25061-Climate-Change-Examiner~y2009m11d20-ClimateGate--Climate-centers-server-hacked-revealing-documents-and-emails#update - Here's a link to some of the emails.

[sunnyp]

We have until 2015 to level our CO2 emissions. If nothing is done then the earth will warm past the point of no return. Siberian/Canadian permafrost melt will expose masses of trapped CO2 and the situation will avalanche out of control. Ice and snow will melt and the albedo (reflective capacity of the earth's surface) will reduce. More heat will be stored in soil and rock and the warming will become runaway. 

I studied BSc Hons Physical Geography and Environmental Science and this was the backbone of the entire course.

It's not a freak natural occurrence. This is a man made catastrophe. FACT!!

But fuck it, who cares right.... We've got X factor, soap operas, Paris Hilton and Hello magazine to distract us from the real issue, which is, that this planet is screwed.     

[2NaFish]

"We didnt listen!!!"

[sunnyp]

I don't understand why you would want to raise a subject and then mock the result. Shame on you 2na...

You used 2 b a hero of mine!!

[2NaFish]

mock the result? not at all. you say "this is a man made catastrophe. fact", and yet this is evidence that their are people with vested interests willing to abuse their position and distort 'FACTS' to further their cause. it doesnt mean what you say can't be true, but this, added to the ridiculous potential earnings to be made fighting climate change and my general distaste for anthropocentric answers, can only lead to doubt on my part.

i'm not a hero, kid. randy marsh, now there's a hero.

[sunnyp]

When this widely accepted truth is written in scientific journals and is given official recognition then it will be a FACT.

Man said that the earth was flat when it was actually round. Even when we thought the earth was flat it was still round, which was still a fact whether we chose to accept it or not. There are billions of undiscovered or unrecognised facts (climate change is one of them). Nevertheless, they are still facts but we just don't know them. That's the purpose of science; to discover the facts and truths through investigation which we don't yet know.

 

[2NaFish]

humans knew, could prove and could calculate the size and shape of the world correctly in about 400 b.c. Beyond this oversight, what the link i gave shows is that the facts presented are dubious to say the least, something which you seem loathe to mention. And anyway, surely your 'the earth is actualy round' bit could be used to say that climate change isnt real just as eazily. In fact more easily as, had it been correct, which it wasnt but for the sake of the argument lets play, it could show that the accepted wisdom (flat earth\climate change) is simply so much misguided anthropocentric tosh.

[Sean]

for me I don't need to look at the link for a decission, unless I want to get involved into this particular scandle part....  which for me would be a smoke screen to hit/understand the real issues of the greater problem

on the other hand, it should bring up the issue of not climate change but with better server security. 

I doubt hackers found the way of all their research and presented it all in an all correct context fashion that explains things     ... sounds silly

who knows what they were working to acheive for a particular project, excerpt, article, whatever.  what marketing they were working on or what corner they were backed into .....  or what corruption they had to fight that weekend or whatthefuckever.

also not going to pretend to know what they are talking about.  We do have many end results to the change, just the stream of facts to lay out how it happened is tuff at times.  .... like  the house was burned down... we know that but tomorrow I have to say in an article how that house burned down without knowing exactly today (which isnt important), so we have to present nicely to show for fact that the house is burnt down even though its obvious.

or fighting corruption with corruption for a particular point in time.  who knows.

[sunnyp]

humans knew, could prove and could calculate the size and shape of the world correctly in about 400 b.c. Beyond this oversight, what the link i gave shows is that the facts presented are dubious to say the least, something which you seem loathe to mention. And anyway, surely your 'the earth is actualy round' bit could be used to say that climate change isnt real just as eazily. In fact more easily as, had it been correct, which it wasnt but for the sake of the argument lets play, it could show that the accepted wisdom (flat earth\climate change) is simply so much misguided anthropocentric tosh.

2na, you are simply wrong on this. A handful of scientists desperately tweaking a few individual results will not change a global trend. Anyway, who's to say that this information wasn't altered between theft and publishing. There were about 3 days between hacking and publishing.

The shape of the earth argument holds firm. Did you know that over 11,000 new species of underwater marine life were found. Does this mean that until today they simply didn't exist?! No, they existed but we just didn't know about them.... The beauty of 'discovery' is that it changes the way that people think on a certain issue and challenges the work done prior to the moment of discovery. One piece of evidence can unite hundreds of unrelated topics that were previously thought unrelated.

Conversely, one piece of mere cyberfraud is not going to stop mother nature from giving humanity an arse kicking.   

[2NaFish]

you're underpinning all this on the basis that you're right because you're right. and yet your argument that i'm wrong because what humanity knows is subject to change is actually the argument that brings yours down.

and i never said climate change wasn't happening. i pointed out that those with a vested interest are more than willing to lie to further their cause.

[sunnyp]

No, 2na. I'm right because I've based my conclusion on countless charts, electronic maps, economic forecasts and reports.

For a start, I'd advise you to read 'Gaia' by James Lovelock. Without meaning to sound arrogant, only then will we be ready for a rational debate on this.   

[2NaFish]

i'm not debating your outcomes. i'm saying that the general public is being lied to, but you've not even mentioned that; you've jumped to the destination when i'm looking at the journey.

[sunnyp]

1. Prove that the public is being lied to. Tell me that there isn't someone in Moscow trying to undermine the research by hacking, stealing, editing and then publishing private emails. Nearly all of Russia's economy is hydrocarbon exports and they would literally fold overnight as country if everyone went 'green'.

2. If someone steals information and then distributes it, then it hardly comes from a trustworthy source. Who's to say that this is anywhere near the original.

3. Perhaps the scientists did just change a few results so that their research went along with the consensus. Practically every student falsifies research so that they can support their hypothesis.... Nothing new. So when they analysed the standard deviation it was statistically insignificant... tweak a few numbers and you've got an outcome that you didn't achieve but did expect. Rather than spend time and money on rerunning the experiments (which may actually be physically impossible when you consider the chaos and entropy of the atmosphere), just cheat a bit and you've got a result which everyone expected!.. The Thierry Henry school of Science. It's not honest but it isn't exactly lying either and it's what I absolutely despise about science. Unfortunately, it does happen.   

[Sean]

yea like proving that the house burned... when we already knew it did ..  thats what I was saying.   or its many houses, and it doesn't matter to proove each rate on each house cuzz it doesn't matter to the bigger issue right now on that area of fire.  yea the things I say in the morning.   I can come up with more BS comparisons.    its like there is a pie with 8 slices and you have to present there is apple in it... but the questions to side track you are how one slice has more pieces of apple..   so its like ok give them a bullshit answer so  you can talk about why you are there in the first place!!  Which is the rate of pie decay at day 2 is 3 percent.

   easy as Ï€