Jesus Was Gay...

[madison]

i
Ah I see. So you not only assert that you know what every "truely" religious and "fake" religious person in the world is thinking, but also what every God or higher power they worship is? ..

Yes, those who are spiritual can tell the difference between believers and those trying to use religion as an excuse for their terrible acts of violence against innocent people. I realize you don't understand that, but those who are spiritual or religious do.  It's  a no-brainer for us. We're not confused or easily misled as you are. 

.. Honestly you are just making yourself look more and more foolish with each post, especially the part about no "God" condoning killing of innocents. But I don't need to re-type Nemo's post. The part where you condemn me as the gullible one is laughable. I certainly don't adhere to the belief that a man, born to a virgin mother and fathered directly by the supreme being of the universe died by being hung on a cross, came back to life three days later, then disappeared off the face of the earth and in the process somehow took the guilt blood and shit off the hands and consiences of every evil wicked person in the past present and future, and made it so they can get into heaven only by asking a hypothetical version of himself to let them. There it is! the Irony in you calling me gullible!..

You don't have to physically see something to know that it's there.

As an example - One of my all-time favorite movies was "City of Angels."  There's a scene in that movie, where  the Nicholas Cage character asks Meg Ryan to close her eyes.  He then takes her hand and touches it, and he asks her, "What am I doing?" 
With her eyes closed, she says "you're touching me."  And he then asks, "how do you know that?" 
She responds, "Because I feel it."  ... He then says "You should trust that."

[nemo]

So, Nicholas Cage doing a cheesy romantic allegory for the parable of Doubting Thomas with the Goo Goo Dolls playing in the background is your argument for religion?

Of course, linguistically and philosophically your point is complete nonsense.  I'm afraid the verb 'to feel' as in the physical sensation of touch is not actually the same thing as 'to feel' like having a feeling, they're 2 different verbs, with different meanings, in fact, take a look at this; it's a list of about 12 different Spanish verbs that cover the multiple different and barely related things for which we use 'feel'.

http://spanish.about.com/od/idiomsandphrases/a/feel.htm

Anyway, it's passages like the one you're referencing that convince me that even were your God to exist, I'd want nothing to do with him.  Violent killer, oppressor of contrary opinions and legitimate protest, demands that his word be accepted without question or the need to provide any evidence to back it up.  what exactly do you feel you gain from tying yourself in bondage to a mythical totalitarian dictator?

It's an example of a passage clearly written to discourage political dissent; to me it smacks of something inserted (like much of what goes into the holy texts) by a ruler looking to maintain whichever version of the idea of divine right to rule unopposed was in practice at the time.

[madison]

So, Nicholas Cage doing a cheesy romantic allegory for the parable of Doubting Thomas with the Goo Goo Dolls playing in the background is your argument for religion?  ..

It was a simple example that shows how you don't have to physically "see" something to know that it's real.
Sorry if you didn't like the rest of the film. But that particular scene was very effective and the message powerful.

.. Anyway, it's passages like the one you're referencing that convince me that even were your God to exist, I'd want nothing to do with him.  Violent killer, oppressor of contrary opinions and legitimate protest, demands that his word be accepted without question or the need to provide any evidence to back it up.  what exactly do you feel you gain from tying yourself in bondage to a mythical totalitarian dictator? ..

The message of God, Buddha and other higher powers is one of peace, love and respect for others. 
Judging from your hurtful, offensive attacks against religion and people who are spiritual, I can see how God's message would not mesh with your angry, hateful and disrespectful one.

[nemo]

The message of God, Buddha and other higher powers is one of peace, love and respect for others. 
Judging from your hurtful, offensive attacks against religion and people who are spiritual, I can see how God's message would not mesh with your angry, hateful and disrespectful one.

I have said, time and again, and even gone to the length of repeated highlighting the importance of this point in my earlier posts in this thread: I have nothing against people who are religious, I don't hate them, dislike them, pity them, condescend to them.  My problem is with the belief system itself.  Surely you're capable of seeing a separation between an organised body and the individuals who conform to that body's belief systems?  Please stop intentionally and erroneously misconstruing what I say in an attempt to make me appear unreasonable or unpleasant.  All I ask (and I think it's perfectly reasonable) is that religion be held up to the same degree of scrutiny as any other model for thought upon which you may choose to base your beliefs (i.e., that it's reasonable to subject the concept of belief to a degree of rational appraisal.)  It strikes me that you're kind of afraid to allow that to happen that instead you'd rather just go on the offensive and call me hateful and angry.  I am angry, yes, but what I'm angry about is the level of injustice in the world, the fact that so many people never have a chance to do anything with their lives, never have an opportunity.  I'm angry at the degree of injustice that afflicts 98% of the people on the planet and I'm angry with the power systems that maintain the hierarchy which means these people will never have a chance.  The reason for my anger with religion is that it's the oldest and still one of the most potent, of those systems.  It continues to assert the greater worth of certain individuals in comparison to others on arbitrary lines of gender, sex, sexuality, race, etc.  For me, caring about other people and wanting everyone to have an opportunity in life, not to be starving to death or dying from drinking unclean water, isn't hateful or misanthropic.  It's a sign of caring.  Because as far as I'm concerned there isn't a God up there who's gonna help these people out, it's us that have got to do it.

It was a simple example that shows how you don't have to physically "see" something to know that it's real.
Sorry if you didn't like the rest of the film. But that particular scene was very effective and the message powerful.

my opinion on the film is irrelevant, the problem is that your point, and the quote you're using, is not valid because it's making a mistake of assigning the same meaning to 2 completely different concepts.  Once again, she could feel it because we have the physical, tangible sensation of touch.  You can trust that because it's quantifiable, it's measurable, it's testable; the other meaning of 'feel' in English (which, as i pointed out, is often a completely different word in other languages, reflecting its difference in meaning) is something else entirely and revels in the very fact that it is intangible, unquantifiable and immeasurable.  These are different things.  What Nick Cage said was, in effect, a fairly clever but essentially meaningless pun masquerading as a proverb.

[mooney]

So, Nicholas Cage doing a cheesy romantic allegory for the parable of Doubting Thomas with the Goo Goo Dolls playing in the background is your argument for religion?

i nearly died of laughter!

Yes, those who are spiritual can tell the difference between believers and those trying to use religion as an excuse for their terrible acts of violence against innocent people. I realize you don't understand that, but those who are spiritual or religious do.  It's  a no-brainer for us. We're not confused or easily misled as you are. 

Can you explian how a spiritual person or believer can tell the difference between someone using religion as an excuse for acts of violence (which is nonsense in itself, as already stated by nemo, lost and myself - and others probably). Why can you tell the difference and i can't? I'm extremely curious to hear your reasoning. Preferably with and Nicolas Cage analogy, if possible... seriously.

Secondly, what makes you less misled and confused than me? Seeing as i dont belive in things (Gods, for example) despite no evidence to support their existence. Seeing as i, and others, can question views, priniciples etc.. placed in front of them? You, as a "believer", can hardly claim to be well informed, not misled, not gullible, not confused, when it's you and others who are adherring to bizarre and conflicted teachings and folowing the word of some mythical deity. Again, and im being deadly serios when i say this, could you answer this which another Cage analogy? pretty please?

[yet.another.raisin]

One of my all-time favorite movies was "City of Angels."

Why? That is the cheesy american remake  of Wings Of Desire, right? An all-time favorite? That's a way more interesting character trait than pompous religiosity, can we have a thread about that instead?

[GGS]

The message of Buddha is to resign yourself to the fate of nothing you do matters in the long run but doing good will make you feel better while the time passes.

The message of God is to worship me or die and suffer after your death.

Alot of other figures susbscribe to the worship me of suffer X amount of consquences approach either.

As I alluded to earlier;

Go up to someone in a Che t-shirt in the street ask them if they are a communist and if they respect Che and then give them a gun and make them starting shooting people say if they don't you will have a sniper on a roof near by blow their brains out, make him start with his non communist friend or a nearby cop, hey Che killed non communists and cops so why can't that guy? Advance the cause you believe in the way the forefathers of the cause did.

See how quick someone soon looses there ideals when faced with reality.

Excuses, excuses, the maggots in the apple, the 'Order' after Chaos, self preservation and interest is the master.


Sadly a great deal of the 'masses' of people on earth are piss takers not risk takers.

It is all well and good being a communist now after Stalin & Mao & Che and people of the past have done all the hard work and implemented your cause while you sit around in safety like a cheese dick spouting rhetoric.

The weak worship the strong.

You sit around believing in fear that something stronger i.e. God can kill you and has power over you.

You sit around feeling and believing you are guility because you are told the leader of the belief system you believe in died i.e Jesus to give you what you believe in.

You limit and weaken yourself by following rules you are told are the truth because you are told you will gain a reward for it that others won't.

So basically fear, guilt and long term gratification is what makes a believer more 'spirtual' than you.


Lets remember something stated multiple times in the holy books; God had to wipe people out for various reasons before it was ultimately worshiped.

It had to make people fear it and be guilty in the first place to be destroyed but also ironic how some group or person is always spared and told about the same old reward. To cut along story short all this = hijacking a persons will and self preservation.

Jews, Christians, Muslims and every other group with an ideology had to conquer people through strength or infiltration (both = fear) and make you feel guilty about being conquered before they became the 'truth' that you will believe in because even though you are scared and feeling guilty you can still be rewarded.


If you walk up to a Christian, Jews and Muslims don't count as they are permitted to lie which is another irony of supposedly believing in the 'only & uber truth'. Anyway if you walk up to a Christian and put a gun to their head and tell them you will not pull the trigger if they say they do not believe in God, do you wonder what they would do?

Do you think their faith will be so strong they will let you kill them and die a believer or will the old self preservation that humanity has had before religion and ideology kick in and they will throw everything they believe in away in that instant?

What if you give them a gun as well, do you think they will shoot you to preserve themselves even though it specifically says in the bible 'Thou Shalt Not Kill' and 'Turn The Other Cheek'.

Now think back to your ancestors who faced these dilemmas when religion and other ideologies that have ruled through the ages and maybe you will understand why YOU yes you are here today.

Because your ancestors valued their lives higher than the value system they followed at the time, when Mr Jew, Christian and Muslim etc. came with his sword and told them hey Mr and Mrs snake eater if you stop eating snakes and become a whatever you won't get this sword put in you but if you still want to eat snakes we will have to stick this sword in you.

The secret to life is almost anything can be willed into existence by enough extreme force over a prolonged period of time.

The worship of omnipotent pink elephants may be a delight faced by our future generations.

[madison]

i nearly died of laughter!

Can you explian how a spiritual person or believer can tell the difference between someone using religion as an excuse for acts of violence (which is nonsense in itself, as already stated by nemo, lost and myself - and others probably). Why can you tell the difference and i can't? I'm extremely curious to hear your reasoning. Preferably with and Nicolas Cage analogy, if possible... seriously...

Please re-read my last post.  The answer is there.
People who are religious/spiritual believe in peace, love and, most importantly, respecting others' rights to believe in a higher power.  We don't launch personal attacks against other religions - and we don't pit one religion against another.  We also see right through the terrorists and nutcases who attempt to use religion to justify unspeakable acts of violence.  As I said, it's a no-brainer for us.  But the non-religious and weak in spirit are gullible and easily misled by the terrorists' claims, and they're all too willing to jump on a bandwagon - any bandwagon - that attempts to tear down an entire religion, faith or culture that they don't understand.

.. it's you and others who are adherring to bizarre and conflicted teachings and folowing the word of some mythical deity. Again, and im being deadly serios when i say this, could you answer this which another Cage analogy? pretty please? ...

So much anger and hostility.
It's a shame.
Peace.

...  Please stop intentionally and erroneously misconstruing what I say in an attempt to make me appear unreasonable or unpleasant...

You managed to accomplish that all by yourself by ridiculing and attacking the religious and spiritual beliefs of others.
As I mentioned in an earlier post - if everyone would respect others beliefs, religions and cultures, the world would be a much happier and peaceful place.  You need to relax and let people live their lives.

 

[yet.another.raisin]

  You need to relax and let people live their lives.

No-one going to jump on the delicious irony here? Come on guys, don't let this opportunity slip away.

[LostInTheGarden]

Yes, those who are spiritual can tell the difference between believers and those trying to use religion as an excuse for their terrible acts of violence against innocent people. I realize you don't understand that, but those who are spiritual or religious do.  It's  a no-brainer for us. We're not confused or easily misled as you are. 

You don't have to physically see something to know that it's there.

Ok first of all... No you absolutely cannot. second of all  to feel is one of our five senses. In the context of this arguement and in accordance with the example you used it would be the same as seeing something. Now, I really can't comprehend how someone can be ignorant enough to stand by the argument you keep making. I feel like I'm on repeat here but you really need to understand that extremists, terrorists, violent zealots ARE acting on religous beliefs. Maybe they don't share the same set of beliefs as you and Dr. James Dobson, or billy graham, maybe they don't interpret their religous textts the same as other practioners of islam, but that does nothing to change the fact. How is it so hard to comprehend that not all people who are religious share the exact same belief system, and don't all practice in the same exact way? Would you make the arguement that Fred Phelps and his family aren't operating under their interpratation of the bible either? Madison you have absolutely no right to talk down to me, or insinuate that I'm not as smart as you, especially when you are clearly 100% wrong about this issue. I have to believe at this point that you're simply trolling or something because there is no way an intelligent person could disagree with the point I'm making here. Which isn't that religion is bad, or everyone who practices a form of organized religion is evil, but simply that not everyone subscribes to your specific brand of mythology, and that even those who do can't say that everyone else's religion isn't one. I don't enjoy country music, but I certainly wouldn't make the arguement hat when Garth Brooks sings he isn't actually singing.

[mooney]

Please re-read my last post.  The answer is there.
People who are religious/spiritual believe in peace, love and, most importantly, respecting others' rights to believe in a higher power.  We don't launch personal attacks against other religions - and we don't pit one religion against another.  We also see right through the terrorists and nutcases who attempt to use religion to justify unspeakable acts of violence.  As I said, it's a no-brainer for us.  But the non-religious and weak in spirit are gullible and easily misled by the terrorists' claims, and they're all too willing to jump on a bandwagon - any bandwagon - that attempts to tear down an entire religion, faith or culture that they don't understand.


So much anger and hostility.
It's a shame.
Peace.

You managed to accomplish that all by yourself by ridiculing and attacking the religious and spiritual beliefs of others.
As I mentioned in an earlier post - if everyone would respect others beliefs, religions and cultures, the world would be a much happier and peaceful place.  You need to relax and let people live their lives.

 

I believe in peace. I believe in the peace, would like to see peace and try my best to keep the peace with my own actions, because i have a moral objection to non-peaceful acts. Obviously im not perfect at this, but im pro peace. I also respect your, and anyone else's rights to an opinion and/or belief. Doesnt mean i have to agree with it, but i most definetely respect their rights to those things.

I'm also not pitting any religion against another. never happenend. Im also not launching any personal attacks. Can i be critical of something, in this case religion? yes i can, im within my rights to do so and i feel i have just reason and cause to say what im saying based on evidence - real evidence, facts...

So that's your your first couple of sentences demolished...

terrorist's claims? They say they do these things in the name of their beliefs because that is exactly what they are doing! They aren't making it up. Show me some evidence that says terrorists commit atrocities, for the sake of it, then cover it up and justify it with a religious belief/ideal. Show me. You're talking complete and utter nonsense. LostintheGarden mentioned Fred Phelps.... Do you think he is pretending to be religious too? of course he isn't, he's just a complete idiots whose beliefs are based on some extremely bizare interpretation of a book that means fuck all in the first place.

I'm not angry at all. What makes me angry is when people are harmed, disriminated against or unable to live a good quality of life because some idiots decide they are going to follow the word of some non-existant dude because they can't think independently, they cant think logically, they are unable to think rationally, look at evidence or justify their actions with any kind of sound reasoning. Im not an angry person. the vast majority of shit that goes on in the world has some finger in the religious pie.

I asked you a page back to list me some wars and terrorist acts that do not have anything to do with religion. Im still waiting.

Again, i also really like you to use any Nick Cage analogies where possible. im being genuine in that request as well.

[madison]

Ok first of all... No you absolutely cannot. second of all  to feel is one of our five senses. In the context of this arguement and in accordance with the example you used it would be the same as seeing something. Now, I really can't comprehend how someone can be ignorant enough to stand by the argument you keep making. I feel like I'm on repeat here but you really need to understand that extremists, terrorists, violent zealots ARE acting on religous beliefs. Maybe they don't share the same set of beliefs as you and Dr. James Dobson, or billy graham, maybe they don't interpret their religous textts the same as other practioners of islam, but that does nothing to change the fact. How is it so hard to comprehend that not all people who are religious share the exact same belief system, and don't all practice in the same exact way? Would you make the arguement that Fred Phelps and his family aren't operating under their interpratation of the bible either? Madison you have absolutely no right to talk down to me, or insinuate that I'm not as smart as you, especially when you are clearly 100% wrong about this issue. I have to believe at this point that you're simply trolling or something because there is no way an intelligent person could disagree with the point I'm making here. Which isn't that religion is bad, or everyone who practices a form of organized religion is evil, but simply that not everyone subscribes to your specific brand of mythology, and that even those who do can't say that everyone else's religion isn't one. I don't enjoy country music, but I certainly wouldn't make the arguement hat when Garth Brooks sings he isn't actually singing.

All of this long-winded post does is prove my point that the non-believers and spiritually lost are easily misled, confused and gullible when it comes to terrorists and nutcases who attempt to use religion to back up their unspeakable acts of violence.  I realize it's very confusing for you - because you don't understand religious and spiritually-minded people and feel threatened by religion - but for those of us who are spiritual, we have no problems separating bogus terrorist claims from religion, we recognize there is no connection between the two. 

Unfortunately, the gullible nature of non-believers poses a problem when they use terrorists' claims to justify their bashing of religion and spiritual beliefs and try to pit one religion against another.  If you and other non-believers would stop attacking others who are spiritual and stop ridiculing religious beliefs, the world would be a more peaceful place. 

And if you doubt this - take a look at this thread.  It's the non-believers - not the religious and spiritual - who are hostile, angry, making personal attacks and ridiculing others' religious beliefs.

[nemo]

You managed to accomplish that all by yourself by ridiculing and attacking the religious and spiritual beliefs of others.
As I mentioned in an earlier post - if everyone would respect others beliefs, religions and cultures, the world would be a much happier and peaceful place.  You need to relax and let people live their lives.

 

You clearly either do not understand the concept of hypocrisy in any way or are the best ironist in the history of the universe.  All you are doing here is inventing things that i've said to accuse me of intolerance, preaching tolerance of other peoples' beliefs and simultaneously mocking, attacking and insulting those of us who do not believe in anything.  I'm afraid that while (and I think this is the 6th time I've said it in this thread alone) I completely respect your right to believe whatever you want, I can not share in it, nor do I want to.  I would however appreciate it if you could show a little bit of respect toward my lack of belief.

If you must know, I had a really quite strongly religious Christian upbringing.  I've also written about various passages from the Bible over the course of both my under and postgrad degrees.  In fact I'd be willing to bet I know and understand it at least as well as you do.  Please don't confuse a lack of belief with ignorance, I haven't gone so far as to label your choice to believe as ignorant.

But still, you are yet to offer any counter whatsoever to my assertion that the texts of the Abrahamic religions are dangerous books, not because of the way they're interpreted by extremists, but by the way they almost have to be interpreted by the more moderate members of the congregations.

[mooney]

All of this long-winded post does is prove my point that the non-believers and spiritually lost are easily misled, confused and gullible when it comes to terrorists and nutcases who attempt to use religion to back up their unspeakable acts of violence.  I realize it's very confusing for you - because you don't understand religious and spiritually-minded people and feel threatened by religion - but for those of us who are spiritual, we have no problems separating bogus terrorist claims from religion, we recognjize there is no connection between the two. 

Unfortunately, the gullible nature of non-believers poses a problem when they use terrorists' claims to justify their bashing of religion and spiritual beliefs and try to pit one religion against another.  If you and other non-believers would stop attacking others who are spiritual and stop ridiculing religious beliefs, the world would be a more peaceful place. 

And if you doubt this - take a look at this thread.  It's the non-believers - not the religious and spiritual - who are hostile, angry, making personal attacks and ridiculing others' religious beliefs.

stop spouting the same crap and answer the questions that are actually put to you. ive provided a couple in my post above, and highlighted why your posts are wildly inaccurate. You cant answer my questions because you are wonrg, but please try, please.

and dont forget those Cage analogies...