L'Egypt, UPDATE: MUBARAK STEPPED DOWN!!! CONGRATS EGYPT

[Rocket Queen]

As everyone already know, Egyptians are pissed, and they want reform... So do Tunisians, but they've sort of been overshadowed by the biggest Arabic Speaking Nation, in the media.


Also, I fully realize the consequences of violent protests, and Egypt will look better if they do this peacefully, as they have for the most part up until this point (if we ignore the Pro M "protesters", meaning the trained armed men on horses that go batshit and have caused most fatalities along with the violent police). It will easily be used against the protesters to justify violence against them, imprisoning etc etc... But after hearing Mr. M's speech yesterday, I say do it French style. Chop that assholes head off.

Also realize that he probably want to piss Egyptians off, and I agree with the statements that have been made in regards to "baiting" the protesters... And he has succeeded, and when it comes down to it lets hope this revolution has as little deaths as possible. They are getting louder, but not more violent, really.

Excuse the rant... What are your thoughts? Do you think Egypt can transition into a stable democracy? Do you think the ARMY will join the majority and help the process?

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2011/02/201121125158705862.html

http://www.lemonde.fr/proche-orient/article/2011/02/11/mobilisation-massive-en-perspective-au-caire_1478399_3218.html#ens_id=1470465

[polar]

if you think this is all good and well for egypt, well then i have to call you a useful idiot.

mubarak  sucked, sure, but at least he wasn't a threat to the western nations.  wait til you see what happens next.  95% of egyptians don't think their govt is islamic enough, most are in favor of al qaeda, most favor cutting ppl's hands off that steal, most favor separating men and women at work.  wait til the muslim brotherhood take over and start a war with israel.  gonna be lots of fun.  they don't wear turbans and chant about the koran, they wear suits and ties and say whatever it takes to destroy the infidels.  a millon or so ppl had a riot, but don't forget the other 85 million that stayed home

[mooney]

if you think this is all good and well for egypt, well then i have to call you a useful idiot.

mubarak  sucked, sure, but at least he wasn't a threat to the western nations.  wait til you see what happens next.  95% of egyptians don't think their govt is islamic enough, most are in favor of al qaeda, most favor cutting ppl's hands off that steal, most favor separating men and women at work.  wait til the muslim brotherhood take over and start a war with israel.  gonna be lots of fun.  they don't wear turbans and chant about the koran, they wear suits and ties and say whatever it takes to destroy the infidels.  a millon or so ppl had a riot, but don't forget the other 85 million that stayed home

and you called RQ a "useful idiot"? The irony is suffocating...

[nemo]

if you think this is all good and well for egypt, well then i have to call you a useful idiot.

mubarak  sucked, sure, but at least he wasn't a threat to the western nations.  wait til you see what happens next.  95% of egyptians don't think their govt is islamic enough, most are in favor of al qaeda, most favor cutting ppl's hands off that steal, most favor separating men and women at work.  wait til the muslim brotherhood take over and start a war with israel.  gonna be lots of fun.  they don't wear turbans and chant about the koran, they wear suits and ties and say whatever it takes to destroy the infidels.  a millon or so ppl had a riot, but don't forget the other 85 million that stayed home

You've sunk to this?

Glenn Beck-01/31/11-B

This?

I expected better of you.

Nice Lenin reference though.

[2NaFish]

Glenn Beck-01/31/11-B

Oh my.

[polar]

You've sunk to this?

Glenn Beck-01/31/11-B

This?

I expected better of you.

Nice Lenin reference though.

first of all, i don't have time in life to watch a 12 minute long video featuring glenn beck, fact check it, then comment on it when it has absolutely nothing to do with me or posting in this forum.  like our last meeting, you try to tie me to some fake libertarian to try to slander me and then you apologized.  so basically, you're the one who has, once again, "sunk to this"

why don't you try and address what i typed, specifically,  instead of tying me to someone who has nothing to do with me. 

[2NaFish]

first of all, i don't have time in life to watch a 12 minute long video featuring glenn beck, fact check it, then comment on it when it has absolutely nothing to do with me or posting in this forum.  like our last meeting, you try to tie me to some fake libertarian to try to slander me and then you apologized.  so basically, you're the one who has, once again, "sunk to this"

why don't you try and address what i typed, specifically,  instead of tying me to someone who has nothing to do with me. 

how can you say its nothing to do with you if you've not seen it?

[nemo]

He basically say this...

mubarak  sucked, sure, but at least he wasn't a threat to the western nations.  wait til you see what happens next.  95% of egyptians don't think their govt is islamic enough, most are in favor of al qaeda, most favor cutting ppl's hands off that steal, most favor separating men and women at work.  wait til the muslim brotherhood take over and start a war with israel.  gonna be lots of fun.  they don't wear turbans and chant about the koran, they wear suits and ties and say whatever it takes to destroy the infidels.  a millon or so ppl had a riot, but don't forget the other 85 million that stayed home

That thing you said.  Which is nonsensical.

We're talking about a movement here that could potential tip the house of Saud out of power, a regime that actually do regularly go around chopping off hands, refusing to let women work, drive, or leave their houses without their husbands and that bans all forms of contact between non married people of opposite sexes as well as killing homosexuals.  We've seen Egyptian men and women out on the street together, protesting and working for freedom in an entirely non violent way despite terrible provocation, we've seen immams and the priests of Egypt's coptic christian population giving speeches together and leading prayers together saying that all Egyptians are united regardless of faith.  Maybe they do say they don't think their country's Islamic enough (I haven't actually heard that from many people, most of those who think so are the conservatives who wanted the current regime to stay in place), but even if they do, consider for a moment the odds on someone who outed themself as an atheist winning a U.S Presidential election, look at the name of the ruling centre right parties in many of Western Europe's parliaments; half of them are called the Christian Democratic Party. 

And there was not a silent majority of Mubarak supporters who wanted him to stay.  He was despised across the country, in the cities, in the towns, in the countryside; they wanted him gone. 

how can you say its nothing to do with you if you've not seen it?

I think it's a similar thing to what happened after the Brass Eye paedophilia special.

[2NaFish]

but even if they do, consider for a moment the odds on someone who outed themself as an atheist winning a U.S Presidential election, look at the name of the ruling centre right parties in many of Western Europe's parliaments; half of them are called the Christian Democratic Party. 

Brought back some good memories this.

[Rocket Queen]

if you think this is all good and well for egypt, well then i have to call you a useful idiot.

mubarak  sucked, sure, but at least he wasn't a threat to the western nations.  wait til you see what happens next.  95% of egyptians don't think their govt is islamic enough, most are in favor of al qaeda, most favor cutting ppl's hands off that steal, most favor separating men and women at work.  wait til the muslim brotherhood take over and start a war with israel.  gonna be lots of fun.  they don't wear turbans and chant about the koran, they wear suits and ties and say whatever it takes to destroy the infidels.  a millon or so ppl had a riot, but don't forget the other 85 million that stayed home

Yes... I am the idiot. The one that falls for U.S media propaganda however, is the clever one. OHHH MUSLIM BROTHER HOOD GUIZ!! LOCK UP UR WIVES!! THEY WILL CHOP UR HANDZ OFF. Except from the fact that they have pretty much kept out of this 'revolution', and that they are not planing to run in the next election, and never mind the fact that they support a democracy, and call this a revolution of the people of Egypt, the young generation. Yes, they will probably want to influence things, of course, but the young educated Egyptians want nothing similar to Saudi. Tunisians want everything but a Saudi Regime.

All I know is, that when Israeli officials use terms like "medieval" and "1001 nights" to describe a Middle East that consist of a large body of extremely diverse countries, and many educated people, I feel frustrated, and sad. Especially when they justify such use of words by saying that so many middle eastern countries are THEOCRATIC and Islamist... FUCKING ISRAEL, A JEWISH STATE, that is so militaristic as they can get, and religious it can get.... calls their neighbors... Ah...what ever.

I have to make it to lunch that closes in 15 min.

[polar]

And there was not a silent majority of Mubarak supporters who wanted him to stay.  He was despised across the country, in the cities, in the towns, in the countryside; they wanted him gone

it doesn't take a genius to figure out support for mubarak was slim to none, not sure what this has to do anything

but even if they do, consider for a moment the odds on someone who outed themself as an atheist winning a U.S Presidential election, look at the name of the ruling centre right parties in many of Western Europe's parliaments; half of them are called the Christian Democratic Party.

really?  you're comparing the muslim brotherhood to this?  seriously?

any way, i think there's a HUGE chance the muslim brotherhood, or something similar, will take power in egypt's next elections.  even before the fall of mubarak, the egyptian public was strongly aligned with fundamentalists and traditionalists, not secular, pro-west  modernizers

egyptians support islam and shariah and 60 pct have fundamentalist views and they also want a more expansive role for islam in life. go read that pew poll from last year, 45% say that islam plays a large role in politics in egypt, and  85 percent say islam’s influence in politics is positive. only 2 percent say its influence is negative.

2/3 said in a zogby that "Egyptian life would improve when clerics play a more central role in the political life of the country."

"Egyptians also support the central elements of Shariah Law. For example, 84 percent say that apostates, or those who forsake Islam, should face the death penalty and 77 percent say thieves should have their hands cut off. A majority (54 percent) says men and women should be segregated in the workplace."

another zogby poll from july had 70% said they were positive toward iran getting nuclear weapons, then 80 pct "favor abrogating the Camp David accords with Israel."

"A significant number of Egyptians are favorable to terrorist organizations, with close to half favorable to Hamas and one in five favorable to Al Qaeda.
Given this data it is no shock that the only group in Egyptian society that has any broad based support is the Muslim Brotherhood. Their leader, Muhammed Badi, has not surprisingly said the Koran should be law in Egypt and that jihad was essential. He also said that Israel and Zionism have to be resisted in every way possible with every resource at the disposal of the Egyptian people."

"According to the most recent data available, the Egyptian people are strongly favorable towards the Muslim Brotherhood. A study conducted in 2009 by WorldPublicOpinion.org shows that 64 percent have positive views of the Muslim Brotherhood, while just 16 percent have negative views. Nineteen percent said they have mixed views. An even larger majority, 69 percent, believes that the Muslim Brotherhood favors democracy. Just 22 percent believe they are too extreme and not genuinely democratic."


on top of all that, the muslim brotherhood was banned from being on the ballot in 2005, was in a rigged election, and STILL managed to pull in over 20% of the vote.  you do the math

The one that falls for U.S media propaganda however, is the clever one.

i seriously doubt anyone here thinks that i'm someone that "falls for US media propaganda" but if you have to tell yourself that about me to try to feel better, i won't stop you

[Rocket Queen]

Your "findings" are so fucking shocking Polar...

.... A country where there are a large majority of Muslim think their religion is an important part of their life? No shit. Don't tell me that Jews, Christians etc also think "Christian/Jewish ethics" are a big part of their life and is important in the decision of who to vote for. You say that you're not falling for U.S propaganda/western media propaganda, but at the same time you're referring to Islam like the devil that is a huuge threat to the western world. I know a lot of modern Muslims, and they are the next generation. Also, your source is shit, Zogby is biased unfair polling company whom I do not trust based on reviews I have read, and the international criticism it has received. Also, yes, they want to change the peace treaty they have with Israel, as Israel are fucking everyone over with the help of the U.S, Egyptians would most likely want to work towards a more fair treaty, and hopefully finally a 2 state solution, that is really the only way there will ever be peace in that area, but that is a different thread.

And NO, the Muslim Brotherhood are not running in the next elections, their leaders have officially stated. Believe what you will.

[mooney]

it doesn't take a genius to figure out support for mubarak was slim to none, not sure what this has to do anything

Democratic principles, maybe?

Your poll data is a little misleading without some sort of context. For example, a Brooking Institute poll taken in August i believe showed 57% of people in the region were in favour of Iran having nuclear weapons. OK, why? As a deterrent to a US/Israeli attack. Furthermore, if you read US intelligence reports you'll see that Iranian military doctrine is strictly defensive, designed to stop and/or slow an invading force. So unnecessary scare-mongering from you (or at least that's how it comes across). The same poll also noted that people from the region thought Israel (88%) and the US (77%) were the biggest threats to the region (Iran just 10%). So, seeing as you seem to be getting at radical Islam (which we - US and UK - have never been too bothered about colluding with when it suited us, including the Muslim Brootherhood), and thusly, terrorism, maybe it would be better to understand the reasons for their views, actions etc...? You know full well it is to do with our own imperialist, terrorist policies, which leads to radicalisation etc.... It's pretty clear and consistent over time in the internal documents etc...

As far as their internal, religious beliefs and traditions, I'm not in favour, obviously, but it's got nothing to do with me - nor should it. I cant change that, im not responsible for it, and if it's what they want, and democratic processes are upheld in achieving what the majority wants, then so be it.

[dman1991]

Im still trying to figure you our Polar. You believe in slight anarchy, self governance to a degree, yet you condemn what egypt is doing. What if they want the muslim brotherhood? Im sorry you are just all over the place. I understand the Muslim Brotherhood may not be the best thing for the region, but that is what the people are doing. Hell let them all blow each other up, we really should not have a say in what their people wanna do.