Happy New Years!, and...

[Iconic Shawn]

ChiDem   just like that good ex, you can't help but to come back.

Sooo... Happy New Years!!!!

With GnR bumping up a storm these days you'd think this place would be bustling and rustling with all kinds of stuff but I guess.. well, with wtf ... his name... fuck,.. Ah! jp_ool around and being right all the time about everything it kind of pulls away from the fun of actually debating ideas and such.

(Somewhat jk jp, I'm sure you're not the only reason its a little slow in here...  )

Speaking of ideas, you guys were always a charm to debate or discuss things with because of how different you are and especially (I think) because of how we're all from and in different parts of the world.

We're all seeing the same thing, but from a different angle. Of course we're going to disagree!

However, you guys get hilariously defensive, then offensive at times and I think it might divert the reason we're even typing to whatever else.. Now being a GnR fan I expect no less than a lot of 'fuck you's and "you're an _______" as well as knowing a lot of you are not from the formerly glorious, strongest!, best!, most powerful!, coolest flag!, coolest animal mascot country, in the worrrrrllllldddd, the United States, I expect the booooos but come on..

Anyway..

Here's a gripe I have with you guys and your relative thinking.

In regards to society, you guys usually take the humanitarian side where we should live in a perfect world because we know we are capable. I get it. What I think is that you guys might be letting that side get too heavy. What I mean is that humans are also capable of the worst as well. We're capable of having 1 man in charge of the entire world (and if not now then soon for sure).

I'm looking forward to getting into it here and there from work on a few things with you guys.

Relativism.. you guys were big fans of that from what I remember. I think thats where humans are really starting to go wrong. We've tried to blur reality with relativism.

Man this took longer and was longer than I thought.. 

Here is the BIG question...


For those who don't believe in God or an afterlife, what do you think we came from? I find it amazing, the concept of all from nothing.

What should then be our purpose as beings in life? Self fulfillment? Social fulfillment? Something else?

Hmm..

~S~

Man my avatar is the shit.

[Beanie]

For those who don't believe in God or an afterlife, what do you think we came from? I find it amazing, the concept of all from nothing.

Somewhere along the line something HAD to come from nothing.  If we were 'made' or 'designed' by a God or created from something else, then where did that something else come from?  Nothing? Something else? Where did THAT something else come from?  I can't explain it but as far as I can see, it MUST have happened.  It is pretty amazing.

[mooney]

Happy new year...

Here is the BIG question...


For those who don't believe in God or an afterlife, what do you think we came from? I find it amazing, the concept of all from nothing.

What should then be our purpose as beings in life? Self fulfillment? Social fulfillment? Something else?

Your first question, unless you mean in simple evolutionary terms (i assume you're talking pre-big bang etc...), is impossible to answer. Well, not impossible to answer... My honest answer is i have no clue whatsoever.

As to your second question, that for me is more interesting, i think. My answer would be somewhere close to your own suggestions. I'd say, i guess, emotional fulfillment. ie, happiness, but with one qualification: that when undergoing that quest, you do so without deliberately making someone else's life worse. Obviously 'happiness' would look different to different people, but would probably include sub-categories like, as you say, social fulfillment, work conditions and the like...

[mooney]

For those who don't believe in God or an afterlife, what do you think we came from? I find it amazing, the concept of all from nothing.

Somewhere along the line something HAD to come from nothing.  If we were 'made' or 'designed' by a God or created from something else, then where did that something else come from?  Nothing? Something else? Where did THAT something else come from?  I can't explain it but as far as I can see, it MUST have happened.  It is pretty amazing.

infinite reduction. Who created the creator...

[Beanie]

The way I see it, our purpose is just to be.  We are a bunch of atoms just existing.  But we have evolved in such a way that we have emotions and thoughts and therefore seek a purpose in order to have a 'happy' existence.  So I guess our purpose is now self-fulfilment, which as mooney said, means different things for different people.  But scarily, in the grand scheme of things, I don't believe it really matters what we do. But then again what we do does impact others' lives so on that level it really does matter.  Interesting questions!

[Sean]

we need a fresh face in here......  let me know if jp_ool is available to either steal 10 years worth or work, can lean on the competition, is a SEO master, or can submit a bunch of reunion rumors for us properly. 

Then we can wig out 1988 style 


good year to you Shawn...


Beanie and mooney = right on

[Iconic Shawn]

It amazes me.  This whole thing about.. souls and such.

Its just as hard for me to believe that we don't have souls as it might be for some of you to believe in God.

The whole thing with God, and this coming from a piece of shit of a man, is that whenever I've ever prayed (from the heart) or even thought deeply about Him, my soul (or whatever it is in me) feels something.

Could it be my mind playing tricks?

I used to question God a lot in like, why would he make it so hard to believe and not show himself to put sceptics to rest but if you read the bible it kind of shows you why His relationship with us humans has become what it is now.

Anyway.. not trying to convert anyone here.

I think as humans we all come to this point in our lives where we look up at an empty sky and wonder.

And hell yeah.. that question about "who created the creator" is spot on. Blows a human mind away for sure.

But then again, when he was asked what to tell humans when they asked who he was he simply said "I am".

Also this..  its pretty well documented in Egyptian history as well as Jewish history that the Jews (who were slaves at the time) were let out of Egypt to do their own thing around the biblical time of Moses.

What tyrant ever lets thousands of slaves free? For no reason?

~S~

[mooney]

It amazes me.  This whole thing about.. souls and such.

Its just as hard for me to believe that we don't have souls as it might be for some of you to believe in God.

The whole thing with God, and this coming from a piece of shit of a man, is that whenever I've ever prayed (from the heart) or even thought deeply about Him, my soul (or whatever it is in me) feels something.

Could it be my mind playing tricks?

~S~

You're gonna have to define your terms better... What exactly is it you mean by 'soul'? Given that there is no such physical thing as a soul (or 'the mind') for that matter, but that it is certain that we do actually think ("I think therefore i am", one of only two Absolute Truths - the other being Maths) it's worth understanding that our consciousness is a secondary manifestation of our brain. Secondary because the primary function of the brain is keep you alive via various complex processes. You might want to look up this chap: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjamin_Libet (in simple terms, he conducted experiments yonks ago, whereby, a subject will be asked to make a simple decision, of their apparent own 'free will', such as, press the button on the left or right whenever you want. They are hooked up to a brain scanner that monitors activity, which correctly predicts, with 100% accuracy, which button they will press, several seconds before they actually do it! The extent to which we apply this to complex decisions is difficult to say, but the implications of this of quite significant indeed)

Neuroscience and Free Will - Libet's Experiment

As to why you might 'feel' something when praying, well that seems pretty obvious. If you learn (wrongly or rightly) that praying to a superbeing is good, then naturally it follows that you might 'feel' good when you do it. Self deception, placebo effect... those sorts of things. The 'mind' is very easily tricked.

Also, why is it you believe in the god that it is you do? why not other gods or belief systems? Say, Buddhism?

[2NaFish]

Also this..  its pretty well documented in Egyptian history as well as Jewish history that the Jews (who were slaves at the time) were let out of Egypt to do their own thing around the biblical time of Moses.

What tyrant ever lets thousands of slaves free? For no reason?

there's lots of stuff elsewhere in your post which is interesting but is speculative and your free to reach your own conclusions and find redemption or whatever it is you wish to find in your own way. However, its simply not true that there is any evidence of a sudden exodus from egypt by the jews. Without getting in to it, the main way of assessing how the jews moved around egypt and the middle east in biblical times is done through excavations of rubbish dumps (we can assess their remains and due to their diet we can cross reference who did it and when). There is no evidence that the jews left egypt en masse or even in large numbers. Quite the opposite.

Furthermore, and i include this only because its a point that most people never question, mary and jospeh almost certainly never went to nazareth around the time of jesus' birth to complete a census. There is no record of any census being taken around that time and, most importantly, it was not the done thing to go to your 14 times ancestor's city to register. There was a prophecy, it needed to be fulfilled and so it was written.

That doesnt mean that because there are factual innacuracies in the bible that there is no god, but its another example where people dont use the brain god may (or may not) have given them when it comes to his word.

[ripper1]

Couldnt you just say HNY?

[Iconic Shawn]

Hell yeah.  This is where good conversation could be had with a few beers.

I've often wondered that too.. if I had been raised under any other religion would I just feel the same when 'speaking' to that deity. Its amazing how that works. I can also put music on that category of making you feel a certain way after you hear it.

I guess "spiritual" is very personal and we each have to find it, if anything, ourselves.

I don't understand the value of life to those who feel we're just cells, like grass and gnats.

Why should anyone blink anymore when we step on a roach as to when someone is killed. (to those who say we're just physical of course)

~S~

[2NaFish]

Hell yeah.  This is where good conversation could be had with a few beers.

I've often wondered that too.. if I had been raised under any other religion would I just feel the same when 'speaking' to that deity. Its amazing how that works. I can also put music on that category of making you feel a certain way after you hear it.

I guess "spiritual" is very personal and we each have to find it, if anything, ourselves.

I don't understand the value of life to those who feel we're just cells, like grass and gnats.

Why should anyone blink anymore when we step on a roach as to when someone is killed. (to those who say we're just physical of course)

~S~

if you can get that feeling from music, i'd say it's less than likely that the feeling you get after a good pray comes from a higher power. Unless there really is a music god. And i've no problem with that; i'd say there's as much chance as there being Apollo as there is Yahweh.

Believe what you will, like i said earlier 'every man is free to find is own path to heaven' (it was a dead philosopher who said that i'm afraid), but question your world. If you can get the same feeling from a song as you can from conversing with the almighty it either means that the particular song is somehow sacred or that it's just an induced chemical state.

[Beanie]

Why should anyone blink anymore when we step on a roach as to when someone is killed. (to those who say we're just physical of course)

A tsunami wiping out a whole city, a cat killing a mouse, a human stepping on a cockroach.  Is there a difference? I don't believe so, not in the grand scheme of things.  We are all just made up of particles of the universe moving from a more ordered state to a less ordered state. Everything else is just... accidental.  And we find ourselves conscious, thinking, feeling, with morals and rules and laws. And it is what it is. And I'm very glad that morally, most of us find it unacceptable to kill other humans, because it increases my chances of living for longer But yes, it is hypocritical and no, I can't explain why I don't feel bad for killing the spider in my bathtub.  Maybe because I know it will never know any different?  I doubt it has the capacity to fear death.  That might be one of the reasons.

But we all have preditors and we all have prey and maybe, just maybe, it all happens this way for a reason...

I don't understand the value of life to those who feel we're just cells, like grass and gnats.

Well seeing as I believe it's just accidental that we have ended up with these emotions and morals and whatnot, the value of life for me is feeling happiness, love, excitment, fun, pride, accomplishment, knowledge, etc.  Because I think we are damn lucky to have it all!!! That's all the value I need from life.

[2NaFish]

We are all just made up of particles of the universe moving from a less ordered state to a more ordered state.

nuh-huh

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_law_of_thermodynamics

[Beanie]

We are all just made up of particles of the universe moving from a less ordered state to a more ordered state.

nuh-huh

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_law_of_thermodynamics

HAHA oooppppppssssssss how embarrassing   

I meant t'other way round

[2NaFish]

its okay. lots of creationist have made a very lucrative career from not understanding the 2nd law of thermodynamics.

[Beanie]

its okay. lots of creationist have made a very lucrative career from not understanding the 2nd law of thermodynamics.

 

Up yours.

[mooney]

its okay.

I've noticed this a couple times recently fishman. Your standards are slipping...

[2NaFish]

its okay.

I've noticed this a couple times recently fishman. Your standards are slipping...

blame my fone.

[Iconic Shawn]

The thing with music..

I think all of us, when we hear a sad song it can kind of effect us just as much as when we hear a happy song like.. Nightrain or AC DC's Thunderstruck it just moves something in is.

I'm going to have to put it out there that the feelings Ive had when sincerely looking for God totally blows the above feelings out of the water.  I'm sure a lot of people could come up with a lot of reasons for that but I have to go with, I DO believe the God of Moses, Abraham and such is real.

Nevermind that though..

For those who do not believe in divine creation, what is the purpose of all of this then? Our world, our lives?

If there is no reason to why we're even here, they how can we have reason for anything else?

How can anyone say anything is good over anything thats evil? Who is to say whats what?

People who go with "we're just here" amaze me. They amaze me in that they will say we're here for no reason or purpose yet will have no trouble telling other humans what we're NOT here for.

Like killing and conquering.

If I didn't believe in God (good / evil -  right / wrong), I'd really have no problem killing someone to take their money / car / house / woman or whatever.

And why would I be wrong if I chose to do that just like the animals a lot of people say we're just like, do?

Beanie says: "I know it will never know any different?  I doubt it has the capacity to fear death. "

Have you ever seen a mouse in a snakes cage? Have you ever watched any educational animal shows? Animals fear. Various animals seem to have ALL of our emotions just that they can't talk.

So, if we're just dust in the wind, and you have no problem destroying some roach or something, why should the murderer (or why should you even) care if someone walked up to a kid you didn't know, in front of you, and blew his brains away with a gun?

I believe there is more to our "souls" than some of us would like to admit.

Its easy to cast your spiritual self aside and not worry about all those questions humans have when they "look above" as well as live a life where YOU CHOOSE what YOU want to care about.. but I think its really selfish and glim to live that way.

~S~

[Beanie]

For those who do not believe in divine creation, what is the purpose of all of this then? Our world, our lives?

If there is no reason to why we're even here, they how can we have reason for anything else?

How can anyone say anything is good over anything thats evil? Who is to say whats what?

People who go with "we're just here" amaze me. They amaze me in that they will say we're here for no reason or purpose yet will have no trouble telling other humans what we're NOT here for.

Like killing and conquering.

If I didn't believe in God (good / evil -  right / wrong), I'd really have no problem killing someone to take their money / car / house / woman or whatever.

And why would I be wrong if I chose to do that just like the animals a lot of people say we're just like, do?

Beanie says: "I know it will never know any different?  I doubt it has the capacity to fear death. "

Have you ever seen a mouse in a snakes cage? Have you ever watched any educational animal shows? Animals fear. Various animals seem to have ALL of our emotions just that they can't talk.

So, if we're just dust in the wind, and you have no problem destroying some roach or something, why should the murderer (or why should you even) care if someone walked up to a kid you didn't know, in front of you, and blew his brains away with a gun?

I believe there is more to our "souls" than some of us would like to admit.

Its easy to cast your spiritual self aside and not worry about all those questions humans have when they "look above" as well as live a life where YOU CHOOSE what YOU want to care about.. but I think its really selfish and glim to live that way.

~S~

If I could answer half the questions you've just asked, I'd be a seriously happy person right now. I spend lots of time thinking about all this stuff and wanting to know the answer!

And if I could believe in a God or "souls" believe me I would because I'd LOVE to.  But I just haven't been able to find any evidence of these things.  So don't think I'm just putting my spiritual self to one side... this is genuinely what I believe.  And I have no choice in that.

Unfortunately the answer to most of your questions is that I just don't know.  I'm aware that good/bad/right/wrong is all hypocritical for someone with my beliefs.  But either I was born with, or through social leaning I've ended up with, these damn things called morals.  And they seem to be pretty much on a par with the 'average' human, in that I couldn't kill another human being, but I could easily kill a spider.  And trust me I'm not saying that's right or that it even makes sense.  I don't know why that is.  Is it evolutionary?  Could be!  Other animals kill some animals and not others. So do I.  Other living creatures seem to instinctually behave in certain ways without 'choosing' to, or without feeling they have a purpose, but rather because that's what instinct suggests they do (This is an assumption -  I suppose I don't know for sure if my cat chooses which animals it kills based on believing in a God or not).  It just seems to be this way for a reason.

And if the spider is so scared of me why is it in my damn bathtub eh??     Nah that's a joke. I'm no animal expert and I may be wrong about the fear thing.  I just always felt that some animals display fear as more of an instinctual thing. Can you tell me? Does a spider know what death is before it dies like we do?  When it see's me come into the bathroom does it understand WHY it feels afraid of me? Or is it just programmed into it's system to be afraid of all big moving things? If there is a difference there between how humans and spiders see death, that's what I was alluding to.

And here's a strange one for you.  If I saw a dog die in front of me that I didn't know, and then saw a human die in front of me that I didn't know... I'd be more upset about the dog.  I wonder why that is????? Strange. 

[2NaFish]

you'd rationalize the death of the human as something as being not your fault or something that they'd brought on themselves. much in the same way as, chances are, you'd ignore someone who had collapsed in the street.

the dog, you would see as being blameless and capable of no evil of its own making.

probably.

[Beanie]

you'd rationalize the death of the human as something as being not your fault or something that they'd brought on themselves. much in the same way as, chances are, you'd ignore someone who had collapsed in the street.

the dog, you would see as being blameless and capable of no evil of its own making.

probably.

Agreed.  As long as you are referring to people collapsed due to alcohol or similar and not a medical issue.  And if I wasn't sure I'd probably have a poke n' check.

But you're right, I would automatically assume the dog had done no wrong... 

[Rocket Queen]

The people collapsing in the streets thing... what's that psychological term describing the phenomenon of "someone else will help them".... Phsyc 101 is slipping my memory... but basically there were these studies that showed that one is less likely to get help on a street filled with 100 people than for example 1. Why? Because everyone assumes that someone ELSE will help the victim.

This is why people get visibly robbed or raped on open streets. People transfer responsibility to someone else. I've seen it action several times. I have called the police/ambulance at least three times on the same block in Norway. 1 of them was an old man falling down and bleeding, 3 people ignored him, walked passed, I stopped, asked how he was doing, called an ambulance, when I stop, an other lady rushes over, this is usually the case.

That's also often the case, people judge, they don't wanna help people because they're intoxicated and therefore "don't deserve help". Shit happens, if someone slipped a roofie in my drink and I ended up passed out in the middle of a square, I'd appreciate if someone at least called the ambulance for me/po po. Someone that will try to fish me up with their plastic gloves.

 You don't even have to touch them if you're so afraid of the HIV. You can call the people hired to do it, 911 is free to call. If it turns out he's a regular drunk, they can maybe give him some brochures to a help center or they'll know and leave him be. Simple as that.

[2NaFish]

queenie, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Kitty_Genovese is the case that always gets taught in undergaduate psych classes. And very telling it is too. diffusion of responsibility irrc.

Must say, i've made a special point of always going to help people i've seen collapsed over the last few years. 4 times i've done it now. 4 times they were actually pished and just needed to sleep it off. 3 times they asked to called an ambulance and those 3 times they abused the ambulance staff and were arrested for being drunk and disorderly. I'll still keep helping as they really did bring it on themselves and the next time it might actually save someone's life.

[Beanie]

The people collapsing in the streets thing... what's that psychological term describing the phenomenon of "someone else will help them".... Phsyc 101 is slipping my memory... but basically there were these studies that showed that one is less likely to get help on a street filled with 100 people than for example 1. Why? Because everyone assumes that someone ELSE will help the victim.

This is why people get visibly robbed or raped on open streets. People transfer responsibility to someone else. I've seen it action several times. I have called the police/ambulance at least three times on the same block in Norway. 1 of them was an old man falling down and bleeding, 3 people ignored him, walked passed, I stopped, asked how he was doing, called an ambulance, when I stop, an other lady rushes over, this is usually the case.

That's also often the case, people judge, they don't wanna help people because they're intoxicated and therefore "don't deserve help". Shit happens, if someone slipped a roofie in my drink and I ended up passed out in the middle of a square, I'd appreciate if someone at least called the ambulance for me/po po. Someone that will try to fish me up with their plastic gloves.

 You don't even have to touch them if you're so afraid of the HIV. You can call the people hired to do it, 911 is free to call. If it turns out he's a regular drunk, they can maybe give him some brochures to a help center or they'll know and leave him be. Simple as that.

I guess you're right.  I suppose it depends on the level of 'collapsed'.  Collapsed/sleeping on a bench, inside the bus station or on the church steps like the 10/15 people I pass every night that I walk home from town, or collapsed unconscious in a place or position that would suggest they were in some real trouble... I've never actually seen the latter!  I'd like to think if I did I would at least check if they were ok. No actually I'm sure I would. I realise that if I was a perfect person I'd check every single one of them.

[Rocket Queen]

Sure, at times it can be difficult to decide, and someone in a sleeping bag under a tree, needs different help than an ambulance. I live in Atlanta, in a nice part of town, but there's hobos sleeping out on the streets right by my house, polite all of them, I chat with them whenever I pass, there's a soup kitchen by my house that helps them out. But it's shitty to go inside my own warm house when they have to sleep out there. I wonder how so many people on these streets can make it, I run past old ladies in wheelchairs that are on the streets. It's a whole new level of messed up. Not that I come from some isolated case, Paris is notorious for its large amount of homeless. I can't even count on my hands the amount of people in beaten up suits I've seen running down the street screaming.

I can understand that people are afraid of street people. They smell, look pretty rough and some of them are on crack and are pretty fucking cracked out. What I can't understand though is people who fear someone laying down, bleeding on the streets. It's all about realizing that a little call or "are you ok? What's your name?" goes a long way. I'm no saint, I get scared when the occasional crazy approaches me in the dark, then again, anyone approaching/sneaking up on a woman in the dark should know that it's scary business. Most homeless folk have common sense and go out of their way to make sure they're not intimidating anyone and are quite harmless.

queenie, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Kitty_Genovese is the case that always gets taught in undergaduate psych classes. And very telling it is too. diffusion of responsibility irrc.

Must say, i've made a special point of always going to help people i've seen collapsed over the last few years. 4 times i've done it now. 4 times they were actually pished and just needed to sleep it off. 3 times they asked to called an ambulance and those 3 times they abused the ambulance staff and were arrested for being drunk and disorderly. I'll still keep helping as they really did bring it on themselves and the next time it might actually save someone's life.

There you go. Yeah, that is often the case. More often then not, when calling for help, I have to lie and literally beg them to come. "Is he a hobo?" "Is he intoxicated?", the po po is out on the streets, they can take the time to check up on people. That's what I give them my tax money to do. I'd rather make the mistake of giving help where it's not needed, then the other way around.